Fronts

I've been trying to post this for the last week and I've had trouble explaining exactly what I'm asking, so I keep deleting my messages. Ugh. I'm going to give it a try again, and if anyone needs clarification, please just ask. This is long because I want to give background before I ask the real question.

So the situation is this. I bred Millie as most of you know. Millie has a poor rear, so I concentrated mostly on topline and rear in looking for a stud. I bred her to a male that throws good rears reliably, and I got four puppies, ALL with improved rears, and three of the four with good toplines. Problem is this. Millie on the stack has a nice front, but on the move, she's loose in the front. She tends to throw her elbows out just enough to make a really unattractive picture when she's gaiting. She's got good layback, but a little bit of a short upper arm, but she wraps nicely, and I can't quite figure out if that movement is weak muscle attachments, or about the short upper arm.

The stud I bred her to is steep in shoulder, but moves nicely himself. One of the girls moves well in front (the girl I sold to a show home), and she clearly had the best lay of shoulder in the litter, though not a one of them wrapped well. One moves very wide but straight (no elbow throwing). One moves just a hair wide but nothing noticeable. The last girl is my Cricket. Cricket seems to throw her elbows out just a touch, but more worrying to me is that when she stands on the table, there is a noticeable space between her elbow and body. I can cover it, of course, by changing the way she's standing in front, but obviously that's not the point. Cricket is steep, short in upper arm and straight (not much wrap) in the front. Her topline is lovely, her rear is a big improvement on her mother and so is her temperament.

So the real question is this: What is causing that space for Cricket, and will it come back to haunt me generations down the road? I've been looking for a tightly line bred stud with a wonderful front (line bred on a good front). I think I can produce a litter from Cricket with the right stud that will have greatly improved fronts, but will her issues pop up from Cricket's get even if they themselves don't demonstrate the problem? And would I be better off going back to Millie to breed to a stud with a better front since Millie's is closer to correct than Cricket's, and scrapping Cricket, or sticking with Cricket since she is overall an improvement on her mother, even with her poor front? If anyone needs pictures, let me know. I know most people here have seen both dogs in question, but I can consolidate photos in one location if it makes it easier to see and compare.

Sounds like loose elbows...Don't know too much about that, all I know is that there front structure is not supportive and you would see that in the rather sloppy front gait. I hope someone here can give information on it.

As far as breeding, I would think finding a male with a strong front would be the best option as fronts are harder to correct than rears...a stud with super nice wrap would be ideal.

I too can only suggest getting a stud with a very strong front but not to the detriment of other parts of his conformation.

I don't know how to tighten up her elbows with exercise etc.. Has her chest dropped as far as it is going to go and could the wrap around come later?

Rhodach wrote:I too can only suggest getting a stud with a very strong front but not to the detriment of other parts of his conformation.

I don't know how to tighten up her elbows with exercise etc.. Has her chest dropped as far as it is going to go and could the wrap around come later?

It's possible her chest might drop a bit more after she has puppies, but she's over a year now, and I don't think it would drop more otherwise. It may be an issue of ribbing as well-her ribbing isn't as well sprung as I'd like to see, so she looks narrow. She wraps a little, but not what you'd like to see. I'll look for a photo of her front when I get home and post it so you can see.

OK, here is Cricket. It's awful color in this shot thanks to the flash, but it's a recent photo and true to her normal front. I'm including a recent stacked shot-not the best either, since we'd just gotten the stackers back and she wasn't exactly pleased to see them, but it'll give you a good idea of her outline. She desperately needs some weight, but she's so energetic she just burns everything off.

Fronts are a bugger to fix and take far longer and much more concentration than rears. If she has a gap between her front legs and her body she does not have a proper wrap....popping elbows will come back and haunt you for quite some time....I've lived it and I know. What you need to look for in a stud is not just one that has a good front himself but one that has good fronts repeated over and again in his pedigree. I see so many people choose a stud because he has what they think they need to improve on but that particular dog may have a sire or dam or grandparent that has the same fault that the breeder is trying to correct in their bitch......often I hear people say....well my bitch has a good rear but not so good front and they pick a stud with a good front to try to improve but don't worry about a good rear because the bitch has a good one and she can pull it forward......not always the best decision.....best is to pick a stud with good front and rear and that way there is chance to lock in that good rear AND hopefully improve on the front this goes for anything you are trying to improve......don't give up on one part because the bitch is good in that area, it's best to double up on that good feature and lock it in. What I would do is breed both Cricket and Millie to the same stud as I think they both have somewhat of the same issues and then see what you get from that.

Yes trying to see "landmarks" on a black dog from pics is hard, I am glad it isn't just me that is having this problem.

Her chest viewed from the front seems too narrow which then makes it hard for the legs to wrap around without being too close together,I look for an oval shape but this is a narrow oval.

She is lacking coat,have you trimmed her or has she been in season recently?

I like the idea of mating mother and daughter to the same stud and see what you get and hopefully keep the best back from each litter.

Look forward to following your plans.

I had a whole response typed out and internet at work failed. How annoying!

I had never given thought really to breeding Millie and Cricket to the same stud. It'll be a challenge to find the right dog, because between Millie's color and her Cord1 PRA status, she's harder to match up than her black/tan and clear daughter. Plus she just has more issues to fix, all the way around (temperament, topline, feet, bone, etc). I appreciate it though-it's food for thought, and I'll definitely start looking for a stud that might suit both.

I'll tell you that I have been looking at Ch Heathero Furby ROM for Millie. He's got a much better front that her prior suitor, and while his rear isn't as good as I'd like to see, it's still an improvement on hers. And I've heard wonderful things about his movement from people who were around when he was showing. His age is going to be a serious issue if I decide to use him on Cricket though. He's 11 now, and I'm not planning to breed Cricket until 2013. What I had been looking at for Cricket is a Grandgables longhair, tightly line bred on Thorn. I just sent an inquiry about him last night. He would also be a somewhat distant line breeding for Cricket (back to Grandgables Reddy Steady Go), but he's red and completely unsuitable for a chocolate to be bred to.

Rhona, Cricket did come out of season about a month and a half ago, but it didn't affect her coat-she simply doesn't have any. It may come in some with winter coming, but I'm fairly sure she simply wasn't blessed in that area. Neither was Millie, so not entirely surprising.